the echo of silence

ZAZOOM erring cloud sangha 25th of November 2025

Carl: Today's talk, I would like to return again to the topic of silence. We could call it an echo of silence, as it is a reaction, a response to the lecture from two weeks ago, which was about silence and the main question, "What is silence ?" At that time, two weeks ago, I read a text by John Millington Synge , Geery wrote me that I spelled the name right, but Gerry, you never heard it, ? Because you just read it in the script.

Gerry: Synge.

Carl: Synge. John Synge, I was astonished that you said I spelled it right, but you never heard how I spoke it.

Gary: You wrote it right.

Karl: I wrote it right. Okay. And afterwards there was a text of Bal, with the title "Silence is that which thought has not touched." And our conversation about silence was very fruitful. Because this engagement with silence, this question, "What is silence?" brought up intense ideas and formulations in each one of us. For example, Linda said, it was actually about that which stands in the way of silence. She said, " what hinders us to enter silence is the desire to change something, to want something. As long as we want something, it might be even silence itself, there is no silence."

Silence is the foundation of our Zen practice. And silence is also base for having no goal in Zen. Mushotoku.

Those were clear answers to the question, "What stands in the way of silence?" And Hamid later mentioned that which is necessary for silence, namely, he called it awareness, hearing, listening. Listening into that place where there is actually nothing to hear. I felt that our conversation afterwards, also among those who had only read the transcript, was regarded as important. And that is why I want to continue this today.

Hamid had recently sent a poem, " Unsentient beings expounding the Dharma." There is a traditional Zenconversation, a Koan, between two practioners, if insentient beings can expound the Dharma. And in his poem, Hamid describes how his perception of what is an umbrella, what an umbrella means, has changed over the years. And this change that an object or rather our relationship to an object undergoes, that is the Dharma. That is the truth. That is the teaching, the law of impermanence. And in one poem, "Faith in Mind," Sosan, a Chinese master of the 8th century, wrote, "Don't look for the real, just extinguish your views." So what is the real? What are our views? These questions are placed into the silence when we sit. They are placed without words. What is real?

And regarding Hamid's poem, I have a short quote by Krishnamurti. I think you all know about Krishnamurti. He was an Indian boy discovered by English, British people, to install him as a new messias in their Theosophic sect. They wanted to install a new Buddha, a new enlightened person, and they found this special appearing boy on a beach in India, in South India, and they brought him to England. When Krishnamurti was about 30 years old, he refused to follow this carrier. I found something of him which could be added to Hamid's umbrella story.

He wrote : "The death that meditation brings is the immortality of the new."

I would like to read a text now of Krishnamurti, who is a very radical meditator. He rejects all guidelines, instructions, practices, all schools of meditation. Even to meditate with other people, he rejects. For him, meditation is just a state you enter yourself as your real... as real life, real self, reality. Every posture, every breathing technique is for him precisely an obstacle to meditation. When I was reading him, he sometimes appears to be someone who is simply against everything. That mostly made it difficult for me to engage with him. But yet, in some of his texts, there is a great depth, a direction towards silence, towards the ground of meditation, towards the origin of meditation. I will read one of his texts.

Though even in the Zen school, we have paths and practices that we follow, in the end, they have to be left behind. When Dogen, for example, says zazen has nothing to do with a sitting posture, this also means that in the practice, one must leave the practice itself behind.

So now to Krishnamurti's text:

"Perception without the word, that is, without thinking, is one of the most extraordinary phenomena. Perception then becomes much sharper, not only in the brain, but in all the senses. In all the cells. Such perception is neither the fragmentary perception of the intellect nor a matter of feelings. It can be called complete perception, and is a very important part of meditation. In meditation, perception without the perceiver means to communicate with the height and the depth of the immeasurable. This perception is entirely different from an object without an observer. For in meditation, there is no object at all, and therefore no experience. Yet one can meditate with open eyes surrounded by all kinds of objects. But then these objects have no meaning whatsoever. You see them, but there is no process of recognition. What does it mean that no experience is taking place? What meaning does such meditation have? There is no meaning at all. There is no benefit.

And yet in this meditation, there is a movement of great ecstasy. Not to be confused with pleasure. It is an ecstasy that renders the eyes, the brain, the heart innocent. Can life not be seen as something completely new? Otherwise it becomes routine, boredom, a meaningless affair. Therefore, meditation is of the utmost importance. It opens the door to the unpredictable, to the immeasurable."

So far, Krishnamurti. I don't really agree with his word "ecstasy." I would replace it with "enthusiasm." Enthusiasm, etymologically speaking, means something like " being in God." And that actually describes well the state of silence one can enter during meditation. So, it is this enthusiasm that makes the eyes, the brain, the heart become innocent. And this word "innocent," "innocence," is also used by the Portuguese poet Fernando Pessoa in connection with the absence of thought. And I will quote part of one of his poems. He says:

I have no philosophy, I have senses. If I speak of Nature it is not because I know what nature is, but because I love it, and that is why I love it. Because when one loves one never knows what one loves, nor why one loves, nor what love is. To love is eternal innocence, and the only innocence is not to think.

Silence. There was also mentioned from Bal the fear we have of silence. There was a sentence, "Why am I so afraid of letting life operate on me? Letting silence operate on me?" Those were the words of Bal in one of his poems about how to deal with the fear, the fear of silence.

On this topic, I also found this saying of Krishnamurti:

"The enthusiasm", so I replace his word "ecstasy" now, he said ecstasy, but I think enthusiasm covers it better, "the enthusiasm of solitude comes when you are not afraid to be alone. No longer belonging to the world or attached to anything. Then it comes quietly, like the dawn of the morning, and draws a golden path into the pure silence that was there in the beginning, that is there now, and that will always be."

So far the talk for today. I thank you for listening. And maybe we can fertilize it, sharing our own impressions.

Gerry: Thank you, Carl. Happy that you brought up silence again this week, because I missed the last discussion. You know, for me, silence is where everything comes from and where everything goes back into. And again, it's, you know, what is the word "silence" and what does it mean? I think you used the word "awareness," and for me, that is the silent place where everything is reflected before thought. I've come across a current teacher called Rupert Spira. He's an Englishman who teaches in the non-dualist tradition. For want of a better image, he says that our awareness, our original silence, is like a cinema screen, which is always there, which is always blank. And, you know, our lives and our thoughts are the images that are projected onto the screen. Yet, never becomes the screen. The screen is always the screen. Awareness is always awareness. Silence is always silence.

So for me, it's a really important sort of part of my practice, to find the place of silence before thought, before thoughts arise. You know, Jack Kerouac, and I'm probably misquoting, but he said, he spoke of the eternal silence behind the delusion of the world, or something like that. So I think, you know, everything that we have been talking about in recent months always goes back to silence. Always goes back to silence. You know, before discriminatory thoughts, that place of stillness before our thoughts begin to discriminate and label. And for me, it's this place of awareness. It's just this pure awareness. Some people might call it our true essence, I don't know. So, yeah, thank you for bringing it up again. I think it's a really interesting place to go to. So thank you, Carl.

Ahmed: Thank you, Carl, for the talk today. And just before I forget, Gerry, you just said a sentence, "Silence is that before discriminatory thoughts come in." I realized you weren't with us last week when I spoke about silence before real discriminatory thoughts, embedded ones, about... did I post the... I don't think I did, but it was right on that subject, especially in terms of the conflict that we've been discussing for so long. So I will post that, but you just said the same line: Silence is really before everything, including that which is so embedded on such a level. So just wanted to share that thought.

And as for Carl's talk, Carl, thank you for bringing up Fernando Pessoa. As he is a writer and a poet that's been on my mind anyway. I don't have much to say yet, except this paradox of loving nature but not knowing it, loving but not knowing love, has touched me greatly. And it's reminded me that I want to start reading him again. I had wanted to read him in Portuguese, but my Portuguese never got good enough, and I gave up the idea. But I think I'm going to read him in the translation now that you brought him up. Thank you for that. And I will read the transcript to try to see how we consolidated silence with his poem. Maybe you can add a little bit more on that part, but I just wanted to say thank you and especially for bringing him into the talk today. So thank you for that.

Carl: Yeah, I think poetry is a door to silence. Because it is not... how can you say? It's not directed to establish something. This is what poetry... it is more directed to touch something. This is a big difference. If you want to create something, there is always a blocking. But if we just want to touch something, like... it goes away in the next moment after it is said. It has just touched us. And what you say, you might find... I have a nice translation of a book of poetry from Pessoa, what is German-Portuguese, in mixture. You might find this in English too. Then you have left side Portuguese, right side English, and comparing the words is also a way to get into the mind of the poet, and of the translator.

Ahmed: Is there a name for this book?

Carl: It was the... Pessoa has written under the name of three characters , heteronymes. I don't know, but I will find it. I get back to you. I find it .

Ahmed: I think he's worth more thought and maybe discussion because, especially as what we discuss is, you know, the silence beneath it all, beneath even identity. And he is a poet that wrote from several identities. Maybe his genius was that he understood that there is no identity. And so it's quite fascinating and I think it's very relevant to our discussions as humans and as nature, as part of nature, and the silence and the identity-less world that maybe we do live in, that we give names to. So thank you for that.

Virginy : Thank you. Thank you, Carl. It's so nice to be with you this morning on this talk. I'm in Portugal. I'm in Madeira. So it feels nice also to be in front of the sea, in the silence, you know? But from the talk, Carl, what you were saying that resonated with me was this ecstasy or enthusiasm, as you call it. I find it very relevant, and this feeling that you get, you know, from the silence, the feeling that comes from within, from the body. You know, this feeling that you can feel inside of you from stopping your thoughts. And I actually like the talk you were giving today about this person ( Krishnamurti ) that is, you know, against a lot of things as you said, you know, the practice and sitting. I think there is a true beauty of being able to live it from within, wherever you are, you know? Wherever if you are in the crowd or if you are practicing in silence alone. You know? Actually, you always practice alone within yourself regardless of the surrounding around you, you know? And I think there is a magical, almost a magical power that we have inside of us that we can create this silence anytime, you know? And create this blank, you know, page like at the movies. It's anytime to feel this inside of us. I think it's such a... it is such a gift. And I think it's not only limited to the practice, you know, the practice then happens everywhere, even though you're not sitting in silence alone or in a group. I think you can find it in the noise, too. Like in the... I think it's... for me, the root of the silence is not the silence of passivity. It is the first step. It's very important that we engage with this what makes us suffer, not as an adversary thing, but as something that is inside of us. So there we fill the gap. And then, of course, there is necessary necessity to reflect. Then there is a moment to reflect, then there is a moment of non-action. And then is this, we could say, this emptiness from what an action comes, what is not motivated by distinguishing me and you. So that's what comes to my mind with your talk again. And concerning the platform, I think the platform is... I'm not so much on platform thinking, but of course, it is a good to spread the results of... we are the results of our practice. But I think the platform is already that we meet. That we meet and we open this to invite people. Hamid is always very happy when he invites other people, like last time Serge was invited, I mean, the happiness to include something. This is the platform of what we are and what we have. So that's what I can say. I don't want to talk too much today. Thank you so much, everybody, for coming.

Gerry: Carl, could you maybe read the last line of Pessoa's poem? Because, you know, if we are to talk about the nature of silence, or the nature of awareness, or the nature of our true self, our true nature, then, you know, that goes back to every tradition which says that our true nature is love. And I think I got that in the last line of Pessoa's poem, if that's what he mentioned. Would you mind reading that out again?

Carl: I will read it out again, but love is such a word... inflation... it is a word what is so much used now that it lost for me it´s meaning. It is as if you use a tool too often, it loses it´s sharpness, it needs sharping. Of course it is love. A friend gave me a book „Original Love“, it goes exactly into this directioins, to meet all existences without boundaries. It is not an emotional love, which is needing something. It is not based on purpose, it is not based on thought, it comes to being, just be. So the last lines are... I will read the whole poem, it is very short:

I believe in the world like in a marigold

because I see it. But I don't think about it.

because thinking means not to understand.

The world does not appears for us to think about it.

( to think means to be sick in the eye )

but that we should look at it and correspond with it.

I have no philosophy, I have senses

I speak of nature, not because I know what nature is

but because I love it and that is why I love it

because the lover never knows what he loves,

nor why he loves, nor what love is.

To love is eternal innocence

and the only innocence is : not to think.

Virginy: Can I ask you a question?

Carl: Yes.

Virginy: You were saying, "what is not to be repeated," for you is suffering? Is that what you said, Carl? I just want to make sure I understood correctly.

Carl: Now, in the last part?

Nora: Yes, please, if you can repeat.

Carl: This suffering, which we face and which we feel as injustice, unsuportable injustice, our mind names it like this, and this injustice we want to end, and that creates another... might create another aggression. And we know this. This is a process. It's a process. We see this process and we want come back to... in this worldly cases of violence, to something unviolent... Yesterday I talked with a friend, not really about this, but it always comes up. And he sent me a quote of, uh... I think the author is called Imme Kertész. He is a person who survived the Holocaust. He wrote a book, "Liquidation," and in this book he wrote : the world is a world of murderers, but I still don't want to see the world as a world of murderers,  I want to see the world as a place where one can live.

This is for me, the root of silence. Is not the silence of passivity. It's very important that we engage with this what makes us suffer. Not as an adversary thing, but as something what is inside of us. Action comes from this not distinguishing me and you. I think you said the same in your comment.

Noura, would you like to add something to our conversation ?

Noura: Thank you, Carl. I'm really enjoying the conversation as silence is a concept intellectually easy to understand. I just personally find it difficult to practice it. Like, I understand it's the awareness. It's being still. Being still among everything is happening. So I'm being silent. Thank you.

Carl: Thank you. There was also a moment two weeks ago when we spoke about silence and Ahmed, you were the only one who hadn't said anything. And then I asked you, and you said: "In fact, I wanted to keep the silence." This was a good commentary because it shows our wish to be silent, you know... but when asked then we can almost be grateful that somebody asks us to say somethging so that we can come out of our well established wish, what is separating us from silence. An interesting aspect. Therefor I thought to bring the theme silence up again today. Off ciurse it was different this time, a different silence.

Does someone of us here present wants to prepare a talk for next Tuesday ?

Ahmed: I think maybe we wait to see where Hamid will be next week.

Carl:  Off course, good idea. In fact, Hamid said he would come today. But very good to wait, you are right, Ahmed. Let's wait. For Hamid to decide. Okay. So we stop here ?

Noura: Thank you very much. Enjoy your day.

Carl: Let us continue to enter silence.

Noura: Thank you.

Ahmed,  Thank you, Carl. See you guys. Bye bye.

Noura: Bye bye.