birds in the sky, joyfully

.

ZAZOOM 1 st July 2025

Carl: Here we are as I called us last time, the thinkers.

Ahmed: Is it a good thing or a bad thing to think?

Carl: I'm not sure that it's good or bad to be thinkers. We're not supposed to be good nor bad. It reminds me of the text of Bertolt Brecht: when the thinker came into a big storm, he got out of his plane, he reduced himself to the smallest size. This kind of thinking is a good start, I think, if you don't continue to think always. The first insight, thinking, "How is it going? What are you doing? Well, you're not so bad."

Ahmed: It's an obsession about the thinking, an obsession about the self. Forget the self, and then be discovered by the myriad existences.

Carl: Okay, my friends, I have a profound text today. Last time when Hamid spoke about confusion and wisdom, this phrase, "confusion is the mother of wisdom," was really touching me. Still, some hours afterwards, it came to my mind that sometimes the birth is a very difficult process, a long painful process. And sometimes there is an abortion, because we are not ready to give birth to wisdom. So lots of things came out of this phrase, an interesting topic.

And today, I have a text from Dogen about a teacher called Wanshi Shogaku, Hongzhi Zhengjue, a Chinese master of the 12th century. And Dogen quotes a part of Master Wanshi’s teachings in the Shobogenzo with the title "Admonition for Zazen." The text makes it clear that the Buddha way is transmitted from person to person. That means from Buddha to Buddha, from master to disciple. It is not a product of our own ideas, inspired by knowledge gained from books. So in this text, Wanshi takes two expressions as the basic remarks. One is "the essential function transmitted from Buddha to Buddha," and the other is "the dynamic element passed from patriarch to patriarch." The essential function seems to be the base, while the dynamic element is the teaching from master to disciple. As in Japanese, we say i shin den shin, from my heart to your heart. The method of teaching varied very much from master to master.

Carl: As my mic did not work well last time, a question, can you hear me? Is it good today? Am I clear?

Gerry Rickard: Yeah, yeah, it's fine. It's fine. I can hear you.

Carl: Now the text: ADMONITION FOR ZAZEN BY W. S.

“The essential function transmitted from Buddha to Buddha is the dynamic element passed from Patriarch to Patriarch. It is knowledge attained free of sensation and illumination independent of causality. Since it is free of sensation, it is subtly selfknown; because it is independent of causality, it is marvellously self-illumined. This subtle self- knowledge has no dualistic thought; this marvellous self-illumination has not the slightest trace of light or dark. No dualistic thought means that this knowledge is fulfilled; not the slightest trace means this illumination is perfect. It is like fish sporting on the bottom of a pure stream and birds floating serenely across the vast sky.”

The needle of Admonitions for Zazen appears as this great function. Its dignity cannot be expressed and its suitability is eternally valid. Never slander the favourite things of the Buddhas and Patriarchs; that will cause one’s life to be lost – a weak neck cannot support a swollen head.

“The essential function transmitted from Buddha to Buddha.” All the Buddhas surely transmit this essential function from one to another; this essential function is actualized as Zazen.

“The dynamic element passed from Patriarch to Patriarch.” None of our predecessors ever surpassed these words. This principle is within the transmission of all the Patriarchs, the transmission of the law and kesa. When the head is turned, the direction of the face changes – this is the essential function transmitted from Buddha to Buddha; when the face turns, the head changes direction – this is the dynamic element passed from Patriarch to Patriarch. “It is knowledge attained free of sensation.” “Knowledge” is not memory; memory is an inferior kind of knowledge. Nor is it comprehension, because comprehension is created knowledge. Therefore, “knowledge” which is free of sensation is true knowledge.

Neither universal nor individual knowledge can be measured. “Free of sensation” means “if you come with light, I’ll smash your light; if you come with darkness, I’ll smash your darkness” and “shatter all obstacles of body and mind.”

“Illumination independent of causality.” This illumination is neither intellectual illumination nor spiritual illumination, it is illumination independent of cause and effect. This illumination does not alter causality, because causality itself is illumination. “ Independent of ” manifests the entire world without anything being concealed; the universe is shattered and nothing sticks out. It is subtle, it is miraculous, it is harmonious, and it is interrelated.

“This subtle self-knowledge has no dualistic thought.” “Thought-knowledge” is not dependent on the various processes of thinking. This knowledge has form; that form is mountains and rivers. These mountains and rivers are subtle; that subtleness is marvellous. It’s function is extraordinarily vigorous and its manifestations totally unrestrained. Even if we utilize just a small portion of this knowledge, the entire world and all its mountains and rivers are revealed, and we have the power to know everything. If we lack intimate knowledge of mountains, we can not understand even half of one portion of this knowledge. Do not be concerned with the late appearance of intellectual understanding. The thought we already possess manifests the transmission of all the Buddhas. Not past is right here; right here is actualized. Therefore, that is why “no dualism” is “not meeting a single person.” “This marvellous self-illumination has not the slightest trace of light or dark.” “Trace” covers the entire world. Therefore, it is of itself subtle, is of itself illumined. Thus it does not belong to the future. Do not doubt what you see, or disbelieve what you hear about this. Illuminate directly all aspects of the problem without relying exclusively on words and phrases. Then we will have fulfilment and perfection. Even if we can grasp and maintain the essence, our “doubt” remains.

“Fish sport on the bottom of a pure stream.” “Pure water” is purer than the water that falls from heaven, not to mention the water that wells from earth. Pure water is not bound by banks or shores. When fish swim in this kind of pure water, they go nowhere – that is even if they move ten thousand miles it cannot be measured, cannot be defined, cannot be bound, and cannot be contained, it is bottomless; it cannot be fathomed. If we attempt to fathom it, we find nothing but pure water. The virtue of ZAZEN is like the movement of the fish. Who can evaluate a thousand or ten thousand miles progress?

Pure movement resembles the traceless flight of a bird.

“Birds float serenely across the vast sky. “Vast sky” is not the space above, and the space above is not “vast sky;” so how can this be an ordinary vast sky? When nothing is hidden or revealed and there is no front and back, we have vast sky. When a bird flies in this sky, flying and sky are one. The act of flying in the sky cannot be measured. Flying in the sky covers the world because the entire world is flying in the sky. “Flying” is ineffable and is best put as “flying serenely” – it vanishes without a trace.” When the sky flies, the bird also flies; when the birds flies, the sky, too, flies. The study of “flying” is said to exist right here and now. This is intense, immovable ZAZEN. Regardless of how much we talk, it is nothing .. .. .. but “it exists right here now.”

Dogen Zenji continues: Thus runs the Admonitions for ZAZEN of Zen Master Wanshi. None of the many elders of past and present generations can compose such a treatise. Even if all those stinking bags of skin tried to compose this kind of Admonitions for ZAZEN they would never have the ability to complete it over several lifetimes. We do not have to waste time looking in every direction, Wanshi’s Admonitions is all we need to see.

Group Discussion

Ahmed: What was the part on the sky that you read, Carl? I didn't quite capture that part, but I found it very interesting about the sky and the birds. Tell me, what maybe in your own words, did that part signify to you?

Carl: This part signifies to me the atmosphere in which we are, part of ourselves and part of this big self. It reminded me a bit of Hamid's small poem. Now in this moment it reminds me of the words from Hamid when he wrote "It is too wordy to make an edition." What seemed a funny expression. I looked in the English dictionary on the internet, and it means that it is not worth the effort, and it comes from "word." We can't reach it by speaking, came to my mind. Then Hamid added a short poem: not alone, the road goes with you, travel companion, true. The Way is always accompanying us, as a part of ourselves. In fact, the Way is our company. It is not necessary to have company. It's nice to have other persons to do the Way, but the Way itself, this is it. I will not be so arrogant and say that I have realized it, but what we do is in fact our... we say our true nature. True nature is no-self, true nature is not graspable. This is self, Ahmed, when you ask me this question. And Wanshi says, "Whenever you come with light, I smash the light. Whenever you come with darkness, I smash your darkness." And this means to cast off body and mind. So all our personal concepts have to go, and it's possible when we unify with the Way. When the bird unifies with the sky, the sky is flying. This is my understanding of it. When he said, when the fish is unified with the water, there is no measure of distance. There is no measure of years we practice. No gain no löss. Interesting. This is my interpretation. Thank you for your question.

Carl: I read the text here in front of you. Funny, when I read the text alone, by myself, I was amazed by its clarity. Now, when I read it, I became so enthusiastic, almost emotional. When I read alone, it is just clear knowledge, clear wisdom, but then suddenly, ah.

Ahmed: It's good also that we have the transcripts now, because sometimes it doesn't register fully in the talk, but then you read it, and then it all comes together, it becomes one piece, the sky.

Carl: It's well said. At first thought it seemed too much to read it again, but it is good. It's true. This is a very profound text. Also, this thing about thought-knowledge, the passage about thought-knowledge. It's thought-knowledge, I interpreted it a bit, it's this thought what we already have. Sometimes when I lie and make my siesta in the midday, I have thoughts that I cannot connect with myself. So there is thought-knowledge, what is before the intellectual knowledge. Wanshi says, do not be concerned with the late appearance of intellectual understanding. He describes it very clearly: memory is, in fact, accumulated knowledge. We have to read the whole text again, I don't have it in my mind now. It's very important. When you have a teacher and you have a master, he knows the subject.

Gerry Rickard: Yeah, I think reading that sort of reflects my own Zen journey, I guess, because what attracted me to Zen originally was the sort of intellectual aspect of it. And then at one point, you suddenly realized that, hang on a second, this has got nothing to do with knowledge or intellectualism, which is where you drop off your mind, I guess, is what you're saying, Carl, that sometimes when you hear or read a text like that, it's just not... you call ourselves a thinker, but sometimes it's not good to think about something like this. Just allow it to settle and depending on where you are in your practice, I think you have some sort of a, I guess, a breakthrough, non-intellectual breakthrough or not. And it might be when you come back to that text weeks or months or years later, that because of your practice, there will then suddenly be a realization of what Dogen or whoever is talking about. I remember years ago, Carl, when I first went to your little dojo in Barao... (Gerry's video freezes)

Carl: He's still frozen.

Ahmed: Yeah. Stillness in space.

Carl: Yeah, exactly. When the bird flies, the sky flies. Now Gerry is back with his insight.

Gerry Rickard is back: Yeah, I just said, I had the insight I had, and then it was... I did insight.

Ahmed: You froze at the precise moment that the insight was being revealed.

Gerry Rickard: I was united with the sky or not. No, be curious for this experience now. We have... Elon Musk has an awful lot to answer for. But as soon as it comes to an insight, he cuts you off. Very, very appropriate.

Carl: "No wisdom, please let's stay confused." This is the big connection today, to be confused. So tell us, Gerry.

Gerry Rickard: I can't even remember what... I think I was saying that knowledge is only secondary, intellectual knowledge is only secondary. It's only when you live, when I live and practice and actually sometimes not even think about this sort of stuff, that's when the realization, “a” realization, whatever that might be, however small that might be, will come, which enables me to come back to the text and say, "Oh, that's what it's all about." Because as I said, Zen attracted me because of what I thought was its intellectual component, and all of that has been shattered since I got interested in Zen. It just sort of beats you, beats that out of you, shatters that, to say this, it's only useful for a while, but after that, you've got to let that go. So I don't remember where you guys went with that, if you did, when I went off to chat with Elon.

Carl: I have one thing to mention for you, Gerry, when you said: if we can look on a text like this, in some weeks later, we read it with other comprehension, with other eyes. This is very true for everything what is loaded with intensity. For example, a piece of art, it is often like this, for example, a sculpture of Picasso. It is always different when we look on it. It is not like a superficial note in the newspaper, for example, about I don't know how many weapons are produced or so. This is completely different. It's not only because we have changed, but we look on it from another side, as if we are walking around. There is not only one dimension, there are several dimensions, and we can observe and interrelate. Same thing with our life. When I look on my life, it's a completely different life than 20 years ago. The same chauffeur, the same driver, but completely different. And when we face this in a clear moment, we see that thinking is unnecessary. Insight occurs when you look on the different aspects of your life, suddenly you see you cannot grasp it with the thinking.

Gerry Rickard: Yeah, especially trying to think yourself out of a problem or an issue is, I think, the definition of frustration. Impossible.

Carl: It's impossible, because you think yourself into something, and this is attachment, if we go to words now. You cannot think yourself out of it. As long as you think or resist something, it is there.

All fall silent

Ahmed: We all stopped thinking at the same time. Is Carl frozen?

Carl: I'm thinking. I'm just thinking. But it's also like a bird in the sky. When you think without... there is this wonderful koan. A monk asks master Yakusan, "What are you thinking when you are sitting so intensively in Zazen?" Yakusan answers, "Not thinking." Then monk continues, "How do you do not thinking?" Yakusan says, "Non-thinking." In English, it's very difficult to understand, but in Japanese, there are different words. There is thinking “shiryō.” Not thinking is “fushiryō.” When the monk asks, "How do you do fushiryō?" Yakusan says hishiryō. And that means to go beyond thinking. It is not non-thinking in the word of non: rejection, but it is what is a very frequently used Buddhist term, to go beyond. In the Heart Sutra, for example, in the Gate, Gate, Pāragate, go beyond, beyond. Don't get stuck. Don't just reject the now. Don't reject the contact with the Earth when you walk, but make a next step. So not stay fixed.

Gerry Rickard: I think the bird and the fish analogy also reminds me of what we've been talking about in recent weeks, just to be at one with the moment, just to be the sky, just to be... you know, to burn brightly in whatever you were doing. Like, I go back to Hamid's cricket on a leaf from a couple of weeks back, just to not to be thinking about what's before or what has been or what is after, just to burn. And that reminds me of, I'm sure my age and up, a big fan of Neil Young, Neil the rocker. And I saw him play on television this weekend at Glastonbury, the festival, and he's almost 80 years old, but he had a very, very famous song where he sang, "It's better to burn out than to fade away." And that image of the bird in the sky, the fish in the water, the cricket on the leaf, just reminds me of that. Just to not just to burn it out, the neck of me, a moment, rather than to let that moment fade away. So it's like rock and roll and Zen love today.

Ahmed: It's a rock star's Koan, or like an axiom, "go out with a bang, not a whimper." But I think also a novelist or a literature writer said that as well, but I can't remember who.

Gerry Rickard: It is all stealing.

Carl: I think Marx said, "Property is theft."

Gerry Rickard: Karl Marx, he says this? And not just Germans. Property is stealing.

Ahmed: It makes sense. It does make sense. It should be commons. The idea of commons and sharing space is another way of looking at nature, but we've taken on capitalism as more of a religion, actually, than the religions themselves. I think it's true that people living without the belief in God is easier than living without the belief in capitalism because it's such a part of our life. There's truth in that.

Gerry Rickard: Better to translate in English as "ownership is stealing." That's the same Buddhist teachings, too. It's about, we don't hang on to it for ourselves. We pass it on, as you were speaking about at the beginning of the talk.

Carl: Sharing, transmission, it's a big field. Big sky, big ocean, and we float in it.

Okay, my friends. See you again. See you in the sky. Bye bye.

All: Bye bye. Take care. Thank you.

Ahmed: Is it a good thing or a bad thing to think?

Carl: I'm not sure that it's good or bad to be thinkers. We're not supposed to be good nor bad. It reminds me of the text of Bertolt Brecht: when the thinker came into a big storm, he got out of his plane, he reduced himself to the smallest size. This kind of thinking is a good start, I think, if you don't continue to think always. The first insight, thinking, "How is it going? What are you doing? Well, you're not so bad."

Ahmed: It's an obsession about the thinking, an obsession about the self. Forget the self, and then be discovered by the myriad existences.

Carl: Okay, my friends, I have a profound text today. Last time when Hamid spoke about confusion and wisdom, this phrase, "confusion is the mother of wisdom," was really touching me. Still, some hours afterwards, it came to my mind that sometimes the birth is a very difficult process, a long painful process. And sometimes there is an abortion, because we are not ready to give birth to wisdom. So lots of things came out of this phrase, an interesting topic.

And today, I have a text from Dogen about a teacher called Wanshi Shogaku, Hongzhi Zhengjue, a Chinese master of the 12th century. And Dogen quotes a part of Master Wanshi’s teachings in the Shobogenzo with the title "Admonition for Zazen." The text makes it clear that the Buddha way is transmitted from person to person. That means from Buddha to Buddha, from master to disciple. It is not a product of our own ideas, inspired by knowledge gained from books. So in this text, Wanshi takes two expressions as the basic remarks. One is "the essential function transmitted from Buddha to Buddha," and the other is "the dynamic element passed from patriarch to patriarch." The essential function seems to be the base, while the dynamic element is the teaching from master to disciple. As in Japanese, we say i shin den shin, from my heart to your heart. The method of teaching varied very much from master to master.

Carl: As my mic did not work well last time, a question, can you hear me? Is it good today? Am I clear?

Gerry Rickard: Yeah, yeah, it's fine. It's fine. I can hear you.

Carl: Now the text: ADMONITION FOR ZAZEN BY W. S.

“The essential function transmitted from Buddha to Buddha is the dynamic element passed from Patriarch to Patriarch. It is knowledge attained free of sensation and illumination independent of causality. Since it is free of sensation, it is subtly selfknown; because it is independent of causality, it is marvellously self-illumined. This subtle self- knowledge has no dualistic thought; this marvellous self-illumination has not the slightest trace of light or dark. No dualistic thought means that this knowledge is fulfilled; not the slightest trace means this illumination is perfect. It is like fish sporting on the bottom of a pure stream and birds floating serenely across the vast sky.”

The needle of Admonitions for Zazen appears as this great function. Its dignity cannot be expressed and its suitability is eternally valid. Never slander the favourite things of the Buddhas and Patriarchs; that will cause one’s life to be lost – a weak neck cannot support a swollen head.

“The essential function transmitted from Buddha to Buddha.” All the Buddhas surely transmit this essential function from one to another; this essential function is actualized as Zazen.

“The dynamic element passed from Patriarch to Patriarch.” None of our predecessors ever surpassed these words. This principle is within the transmission of all the Patriarchs, the transmission of the law and kesa. When the head is turned, the direction of the face changes – this is the essential function transmitted from Buddha to Buddha; when the face turns, the head changes direction – this is the dynamic element passed from Patriarch to Patriarch. “It is knowledge attained free of sensation.” “Knowledge” is not memory; memory is an inferior kind of knowledge. Nor is it comprehension, because comprehension is created knowledge. Therefore, “knowledge” which is free of sensation is true knowledge.

Neither universal nor individual knowledge can be measured. “Free of sensation” means “if you come with light, I’ll smash your light; if you come with darkness, I’ll smash your darkness” and “shatter all obstacles of body and mind.”

“Illumination independent of causality.” This illumination is neither intellectual illumination nor spiritual illumination, it is illumination independent of cause and effect. This illumination does not alter causality, because causality itself is illumination. “ Independent of ” manifests the entire world without anything being concealed; the universe is shattered and nothing sticks out. It is subtle, it is miraculous, it is harmonious, and it is interrelated.

“This subtle self-knowledge has no dualistic thought.” “Thought-knowledge” is not dependent on the various processes of thinking. This knowledge has form; that form is mountains and rivers. These mountains and rivers are subtle; that subtleness is marvellous. It’s function is extraordinarily vigorous and its manifestations totally unrestrained. Even if we utilize just a small portion of this knowledge, the entire world and all its mountains and rivers are revealed, and we have the power to know everything. If we lack intimate knowledge of mountains, we can not understand even half of one portion of this knowledge. Do not be concerned with the late appearance of intellectual understanding. The thought we already possess manifests the transmission of all the Buddhas. Not past is right here; right here is actualized. Therefore, that is why “no dualism” is “not meeting a single person.” “This marvellous self-illumination has not the slightest trace of light or dark.” “Trace” covers the entire world. Therefore, it is of itself subtle, is of itself illumined. Thus it does not belong to the future. Do not doubt what you see, or disbelieve what you hear about this. Illuminate directly all aspects of the problem without relying exclusively on words and phrases. Then we will have fulfilment and perfection. Even if we can grasp and maintain the essence, our “doubt” remains.

“Fish sport on the bottom of a pure stream.” “Pure water” is purer than the water that falls from heaven, not to mention the water that wells from earth. Pure water is not bound by banks or shores. When fish swim in this kind of pure water, they go nowhere – that is even if they move ten thousand miles it cannot be measured, cannot be defined, cannot be bound, and cannot be contained, it is bottomless; it cannot be fathomed. If we attempt to fathom it, we find nothing but pure water. The virtue of ZAZEN is like the movement of the fish. Who can evaluate a thousand or ten thousand miles progress?

Pure movement resembles the traceless flight of a bird.

“Birds float serenely across the vast sky. “Vast sky” is not the space above, and the space above is not “vast sky;” so how can this be an ordinary vast sky? When nothing is hidden or revealed and there is no front and back, we have vast sky. When a bird flies in this sky, flying and sky are one. The act of flying in the sky cannot be measured. Flying in the sky covers the world because the entire world is flying in the sky. “Flying” is ineffable and is best put as “flying serenely” – it vanishes without a trace.” When the sky flies, the bird also flies; when the birds flies, the sky, too, flies. The study of “flying” is said to exist right here and now. This is intense, immovable ZAZEN. Regardless of how much we talk, it is nothing .. .. .. but “it exists right here now.”

Dogen Zenji continues: Thus runs the Admonitions for ZAZEN of Zen Master Wanshi. None of the many elders of past and present generations can compose such a treatise. Even if all those stinking bags of skin tried to compose this kind of Admonitions for ZAZEN they would never have the ability to complete it over several lifetimes. We do not have to waste time looking in every direction, Wanshi’s Admonitions is all we need to see.

Group Discussion

Ahmed: What was the part on the sky that you read, Carl? I didn't quite capture that part, but I found it very interesting about the sky and the birds. Tell me, what maybe in your own words, did that part signify to you?

Carl: This part signifies to me the atmosphere in which we are, part of ourselves and part of this big self. It reminded me a bit of Hamid's small poem. Now in this moment it reminds me of the words from Hamid when he wrote "It is too wordy to make an edition." What seemed a funny expression. I looked in the English dictionary on the internet, and it means that it is not worth the effort, and it comes from "word." We can't reach it by speaking, came to my mind. Then Hamid added a short poem: not alone, the road goes with you, travel companion, true. The Way is always accompanying us, as a part of ourselves. In fact, the Way is our company. It is not necessary to have company. It's nice to have other persons to do the Way, but the Way itself, this is it. I will not be so arrogant and say that I have realized it, but what we do is in fact our... we say our true nature. True nature is no-self, true nature is not graspable. This is self, Ahmed, when you ask me this question. And Wanshi says, "Whenever you come with light, I smash the light. Whenever you come with darkness, I smash your darkness." And this means to cast off body and mind. So all our personal concepts have to go, and it's possible when we unify with the Way. When the bird unifies with the sky, the sky is flying. This is my understanding of it. When he said, when the fish is unified with the water, there is no measure of distance. There is no measure of years we practice. No gain no löss. Interesting. This is my interpretation. Thank you for your question.

Carl: I read the text here in front of you. Funny, when I read the text alone, by myself, I was amazed by its clarity. Now, when I read it, I became so enthusiastic, almost emotional. When I read alone, it is just clear knowledge, clear wisdom, but then suddenly, ah.

Ahmed: It's good also that we have the transcripts now, because sometimes it doesn't register fully in the talk, but then you read it, and then it all comes together, it becomes one piece, the sky.

Carl: It's well said. At first thought it seemed too much to read it again, but it is good. It's true. This is a very profound text. Also, this thing about thought-knowledge, the passage about thought-knowledge. It's thought-knowledge, I interpreted it a bit, it's this thought what we already have. Sometimes when I lie and make my siesta in the midday, I have thoughts that I cannot connect with myself. So there is thought-knowledge, what is before the intellectual knowledge. Wanshi says, do not be concerned with the late appearance of intellectual understanding. He describes it very clearly: memory is, in fact, accumulated knowledge. We have to read the whole text again, I don't have it in my mind now. It's very important. When you have a teacher and you have a master, he knows the subject.

Gerry Rickard: Yeah, I think reading that sort of reflects my own Zen journey, I guess, because what attracted me to Zen originally was the sort of intellectual aspect of it. And then at one point, you suddenly realized that, hang on a second, this has got nothing to do with knowledge or intellectualism, which is where you drop off your mind, I guess, is what you're saying, Carl, that sometimes when you hear or read a text like that, it's just not... you call ourselves a thinker, but sometimes it's not good to think about something like this. Just allow it to settle and depending on where you are in your practice, I think you have some sort of a, I guess, a breakthrough, non-intellectual breakthrough or not. And it might be when you come back to that text weeks or months or years later, that because of your practice, there will then suddenly be a realization of what Dogen or whoever is talking about. I remember years ago, Carl, when I first went to your little dojo in Barao... (Gerry's video freezes)

Carl: He's still frozen.

Ahmed: Yeah. Stillness in space.

Carl: Yeah, exactly. When the bird flies, the sky flies. Now Gerry is back with his insight.

Gerry Rickard is back: Yeah, I just said, I had the insight I had, and then it was... I did insight.

Ahmed: You froze at the precise moment that the insight was being revealed.

Gerry Rickard: I was united with the sky or not. No, be curious for this experience now. We have... Elon Musk has an awful lot to answer for. But as soon as it comes to an insight, he cuts you off. Very, very appropriate.

Carl: "No wisdom, please let's stay confused." This is the big connection today, to be confused. So tell us, Gerry.

Gerry Rickard: I can't even remember what... I think I was saying that knowledge is only secondary, intellectual knowledge is only secondary. It's only when you live, when I live and practice and actually sometimes not even think about this sort of stuff, that's when the realization, “a” realization, whatever that might be, however small that might be, will come, which enables me to come back to the text and say, "Oh, that's what it's all about." Because as I said, Zen attracted me because of what I thought was its intellectual component, and all of that has been shattered since I got interested in Zen. It just sort of beats you, beats that out of you, shatters that, to say this, it's only useful for a while, but after that, you've got to let that go. So I don't remember where you guys went with that, if you did, when I went off to chat with Elon.

Carl: I have one thing to mention for you, Gerry, when you said: if we can look on a text like this, in some weeks later, we read it with other comprehension, with other eyes. This is very true for everything what is loaded with intensity. For example, a piece of art, it is often like this, for example, a sculpture of Picasso. It is always different when we look on it. It is not like a superficial note in the newspaper, for example, about I don't know how many weapons are produced or so. This is completely different. It's not only because we have changed, but we look on it from another side, as if we are walking around. There is not only one dimension, there are several dimensions, and we can observe and interrelate. Same thing with our life. When I look on my life, it's a completely different life than 20 years ago. The same chauffeur, the same driver, but completely different. And when we face this in a clear moment, we see that thinking is unnecessary. Insight occurs when you look on the different aspects of your life, suddenly you see you cannot grasp it with the thinking.

Gerry Rickard: Yeah, especially trying to think yourself out of a problem or an issue is, I think, the definition of frustration. Impossible.

Carl: It's impossible, because you think yourself into something, and this is attachment, if we go to words now. You cannot think yourself out of it. As long as you think or resist something, it is there.

All fall silent

Ahmed: We all stopped thinking at the same time. Is Carl frozen?

Carl: I'm thinking. I'm just thinking. But it's also like a bird in the sky. When you think without... there is this wonderful koan. A monk asks master Yakusan, "What are you thinking when you are sitting so intensively in Zazen?" Yakusan answers, "Not thinking." Then monk continues, "How do you do not thinking?" Yakusan says, "Non-thinking." In English, it's very difficult to understand, but in Japanese, there are different words. There is thinking “shiryō.” Not thinking is “fushiryō.” When the monk asks, "How do you do fushiryō?" Yakusan says hishiryō. And that means to go beyond thinking. It is not non-thinking in the word of non: rejection, but it is what is a very frequently used Buddhist term, to go beyond. In the Heart Sutra, for example, in the Gate, Gate, Pāragate, go beyond, beyond. Don't get stuck. Don't just reject the now. Don't reject the contact with the Earth when you walk, but make a next step. So not stay fixed.

Gerry Rickard: I think the bird and the fish analogy also reminds me of what we've been talking about in recent weeks, just to be at one with the moment, just to be the sky, just to be... you know, to burn brightly in whatever you were doing. Like, I go back to Hamid's cricket on a leaf from a couple of weeks back, just to not to be thinking about what's before or what has been or what is after, just to burn. And that reminds me of, I'm sure my age and up, a big fan of Neil Young, Neil the rocker. And I saw him play on television this weekend at Glastonbury, the festival, and he's almost 80 years old, but he had a very, very famous song where he sang, "It's better to burn out than to fade away." And that image of the bird in the sky, the fish in the water, the cricket on the leaf, just reminds me of that. Just to not just to burn it out, the neck of me, a moment, rather than to let that moment fade away. So it's like rock and roll and Zen love today.

Ahmed: It's a rock star's Koan, or like an axiom, "go out with a bang, not a whimper." But I think also a novelist or a literature writer said that as well, but I can't remember who.

Gerry Rickard: It is all stealing.

Carl: I think Marx said, "Property is theft."

Gerry Rickard: Karl Marx, he says this? And not just Germans. Property is stealing.

Ahmed: It makes sense. It does make sense. It should be commons. The idea of commons and sharing space is another way of looking at nature, but we've taken on capitalism as more of a religion, actually, than the religions themselves. I think it's true that people living without the belief in God is easier than living without the belief in capitalism because it's such a part of our life. There's truth in that.

Gerry Rickard: Better to translate in English as "ownership is stealing." That's the same Buddhist teachings, too. It's about, we don't hang on to it for ourselves. We pass it on, as you were speaking about at the beginning of the talk.

Carl: Sharing, transmission, it's a big field. Big sky, big ocean, and we float in it.

Okay, my friends. See you again. See you in the sky. Bye bye.

All: Bye bye. Take care. Thank you.